I’m getting pretty fucking sick of seeing this ‘no one should be killed for their political beliefs’ take going around.
He wasn’t killed for his beliefs. He was killed because he dedicated his life to terrorizing everyone who isn’t a conservative white man, and was materially supporting state violence in the pursuit of white supremacy.
That is 100% something we have firmly established that people should be shot for, in multiple wars throughout the last few centuries.
There was a way around this that would have resulted in no deaths. Trump should been prosecuted for the January 6th insurrection. Then we should have put a bunch of fascists in jail for a long time. Then we should have de-platformed grifters.
We’re never better off with the Dem fascists in charge either. They’re two sides of the same coin.
If we want the law to mean anything, and we want it used to hold people accountable, over 90% of sitting congresspeople and senators can now be prosecuted for aiding genocide, which they did in violation of domestic & international laws. That would certainly set a tone and precedent for the future.
Slight nitpick. Though I agree with the whole “we’re never better off with the Dem fascists in charge either.” In the long term. In the short term there are a lot of innocent people in US concentration camps and whom have been deported. Who would strongly disagree with you.
Biden deported 250% more people than Trump’s first term, and Stephen Miller was reportedly screaming at a meeting with ICE leadership because he was pissed they were barely keeping pace with Biden’s deportation numbers.
The Democrat fascists have troves of victims, too, but the media only gives them a microphone when they’re victims of Republicans.
Biden deported them without going to the legal process? Like I’m pro-immigration so I get it. But there’s a big difference from deporting people via the legal process. Versus picking up some guy who’s a US citizen who has a tattoo of his mom on his shoulder. Calling him a gang member and then sending him to some other country to a slave prison without due process.
Neither Biden or Trump are good, but it’s really hard to argue that things would be just as bad today under Biden or Harris then they are under Trump. And Trump’s not even done with the first year of his second term.
@surph_ninja@jballs How exactly did Charlie Kirk “terrorize” anyone? It was just words, dude! Dramatic much? Charlie Kirk engaged in dialogue. He welcomed conversation, even when he disagreed. He was killed because he called out the lunacy of our culture.
I feel like I am living in the story of The Emperors New Clothes and the people who actually call out the stupidity are being made fun of…and killed now. You need to get a grip on reality.
@surph_ninja a hitlist? He may have named people he felt were contributing to the rot of this nation, but you show me proof that he ever called for a hit or for people to do anything more than speak against the issues.
@surph_ninja The purpose of https://www.professorwatchlist.org/ was simply to “expose and document college professors who discriminate against conservative students and advance leftist propaganda in the classroom.” You have no proof that he ever pushed followers to do anything vile or hateful to those professors.
@surph_ninja What kind of a person makes unqualified accusations against a dead man without providing any proof? And then we asked about evidence, dismisses the need to validate claims against someone’s character?
You are a bitter, hateful person and from what I see you are much closer to the type of person you claim Charlie was than he has ever been. I pity you. I honestly feel bad for you.
See the issue with this mentality is that THIS is the mentality of authoritarians. You try to find ways to justify the murder of the people you politically disagree with while not applying the same standard to the people you politically agree with.
What you’re doing is helping set a precedent that political violence is justified if you frame it in a certain way. If that’s the case then other extremist whackos, including conservative ones, are going to start doing the same thing. What’s there from stopping some conservative nutjob from shooting someone like Hasan Piker or AOC or Mamdani or anyone on the left really as a retaliation? After all, if what you’re saying here is now passing as a valid justification, then they’ll just use your very own justification to justify their own actions.
The things that authoritarians don’t understand is that when principles aren’t applied universally, the standard becomes subjective, and sooner or later, their abuse of power will come back to bite them in the ass by the very standard they helped establish. I am fully aware that Lemmy is usually off the deep end on politics, but this is too unhinged even for this platform.
It’s not about him, it’s about the implications of embracing actions like this. Vigilantes killing people for political reasons without due process is not justice
Again, he was far beyond “political disagreement.” He was promoting actual, race-targeted violence domestically and internationally. If you’re going to be a Nazi terrorizing your community, you’re going to be a target for retaliation.
So you can’t cite a specific example? Nobody is disagreeing that Kirk had vile views, but you made a very specific claim that I want verification for. Give me something, anything that directly shows Kirk actually did this:
He was promoting actual, race-targeted violence domestically and internationally
I agree with you in principle. It sucks a well-worded dissenting opinion is getting downvoted. I’m not an advocate for political killings. But I want to pose a counter question… When does it become acceptable to cross this line? When can an otherwise reasonable person give up on a broken system, and go from political resistance to violent resistance? Because for a lot of people, their rights, their lives, and their futures are under attack. Both politically AND with the full force of the government.
I don’t know your backgrounds or motivations, but that simple a response feels flippant.
I too believe that you should obviously resist and try to counter someone who wants to stamp down the “other” just because they are the other. But simple talk probably shouldn’t warrant execution, unless you want those same rules to apply against you as well. Fight them with words and actions, yes. Discredit the speaker and their ideas, embarrass them, ostracize them. Drive them and their bass-ackwards views out of polite society. I know this is difficult in the current environment. They appear to have no shame. But I think the bar for for violence has to be higher.
I wont shed any tears for this guy. I wont use his name. I want him to be forgotten. But I don’t think his killing should be celebrated either.
Here’s the winner, right here. Fascist fucks want to go around pretending that only billy clubs and bullets and bombs count as “violence.” Inflicting mass starvation on people, withholding medical care, stealing workers’ wages they depend upon to survive, and brutalizing minorities and marginalized groups (oftentimes with actual up front physical attacks) is “just doing business.”
So news flash to the chucklefucks: That’s not how it works. State sponsored violence is still violence, and so it follows the oppressed have a right to defend themselves. It sure sucks when the shoe is on the other foot, don’t it?
But it turns out there’s an easy way to defend yourself from that sort of thing. All you have to do is not be an evil and hateful fuck whose policies and actions threaten the lives of others and their right to exist.
I’m getting pretty fucking sick of seeing this ‘no one should be killed for their political beliefs’ take going around.
He wasn’t killed for his beliefs. He was killed because he dedicated his life to terrorizing everyone who isn’t a conservative white man, and was materially supporting state violence in the pursuit of white supremacy.
That is 100% something we have firmly established that people should be shot for, in multiple wars throughout the last few centuries.
There was a way around this that would have resulted in no deaths. Trump should been prosecuted for the January 6th insurrection. Then we should have put a bunch of fascists in jail for a long time. Then we should have de-platformed grifters.
But none of that happens so. We get what we get.
We’re never better off with the Dem fascists in charge either. They’re two sides of the same coin.
If we want the law to mean anything, and we want it used to hold people accountable, over 90% of sitting congresspeople and senators can now be prosecuted for aiding genocide, which they did in violation of domestic & international laws. That would certainly set a tone and precedent for the future.
Slight nitpick. Though I agree with the whole “we’re never better off with the Dem fascists in charge either.” In the long term. In the short term there are a lot of innocent people in US concentration camps and whom have been deported. Who would strongly disagree with you.
Biden deported 250% more people than Trump’s first term, and Stephen Miller was reportedly screaming at a meeting with ICE leadership because he was pissed they were barely keeping pace with Biden’s deportation numbers.
The Democrat fascists have troves of victims, too, but the media only gives them a microphone when they’re victims of Republicans.
Biden deported them without going to the legal process? Like I’m pro-immigration so I get it. But there’s a big difference from deporting people via the legal process. Versus picking up some guy who’s a US citizen who has a tattoo of his mom on his shoulder. Calling him a gang member and then sending him to some other country to a slave prison without due process.
Neither Biden or Trump are good, but it’s really hard to argue that things would be just as bad today under Biden or Harris then they are under Trump. And Trump’s not even done with the first year of his second term.
LoL. “But he used the correct process for fascism!” You neoliberals are wild.
The Biden admin was absolutely illegally abusing immigrant detainees. You just don’t notice when it’s a Dem.
https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/aclu-calls-biden-administration-shut-down-ice-detention-Facilities
Ah, I see we have opted to move the goal post and add adhoms a classic strategy.
@surph_ninja @jballs How exactly did Charlie Kirk “terrorize” anyone? It was just words, dude! Dramatic much? Charlie Kirk engaged in dialogue. He welcomed conversation, even when he disagreed. He was killed because he called out the lunacy of our culture.
I feel like I am living in the story of The Emperors New Clothes and the people who actually call out the stupidity are being made fun of…and killed now. You need to get a grip on reality.
He created a literal hitlist of professors, and convinced people that violence against trans people was a moral imperative.
@surph_ninja a hitlist? He may have named people he felt were contributing to the rot of this nation, but you show me proof that he ever called for a hit or for people to do anything more than speak against the issues.
Read the testimonials of the experiences of people he put on his Professor Watchlist.
@surph_ninja The purpose of https://www.professorwatchlist.org/ was simply to “expose and document college professors who discriminate against conservative students and advance leftist propaganda in the classroom.” You have no proof that he ever pushed followers to do anything vile or hateful to those professors.
Even if his followers did, that doesn’t mean he condoned it. Show us proof. Less talk, more evidence. #lies #propaganda #turningpointusa #charliekirk
Nah. He’s dead now. He won’t hurt anyone again. No need to prove it anymore, now that the trash has been taken out. Good riddance.
@surph_ninja What kind of a person makes unqualified accusations against a dead man without providing any proof? And then we asked about evidence, dismisses the need to validate claims against someone’s character?
You are a bitter, hateful person and from what I see you are much closer to the type of person you claim Charlie was than he has ever been. I pity you. I honestly feel bad for you.
You’re a white supremacist. Your kind is a disease on this planet.
See the issue with this mentality is that THIS is the mentality of authoritarians. You try to find ways to justify the murder of the people you politically disagree with while not applying the same standard to the people you politically agree with.
What you’re doing is helping set a precedent that political violence is justified if you frame it in a certain way. If that’s the case then other extremist whackos, including conservative ones, are going to start doing the same thing. What’s there from stopping some conservative nutjob from shooting someone like Hasan Piker or AOC or Mamdani or anyone on the left really as a retaliation? After all, if what you’re saying here is now passing as a valid justification, then they’ll just use your very own justification to justify their own actions.
The things that authoritarians don’t understand is that when principles aren’t applied universally, the standard becomes subjective, and sooner or later, their abuse of power will come back to bite them in the ass by the very standard they helped establish. I am fully aware that Lemmy is usually off the deep end on politics, but this is too unhinged even for this platform.
It’s a conundrum. But remember, this guy said It’s fine for some to die from guns. So I sure as hell ain’t wasting a caring thought on him.
https://medium.com/@Setfrasers2stun/the-paradox-of-tolerance-or-how-silencing-nazis-does-not-make-you-a-nazi-53a073b33a35
It’s not about him, it’s about the implications of embracing actions like this. Vigilantes killing people for political reasons without due process is not justice
Not caring isn’t really embracing it though, is it?
Again, he was far beyond “political disagreement.” He was promoting actual, race-targeted violence domestically and internationally. If you’re going to be a Nazi terrorizing your community, you’re going to be a target for retaliation.
Can cite specific examples of this?
Pick any single episode he published.
So you can’t cite a specific example? Nobody is disagreeing that Kirk had vile views, but you made a very specific claim that I want verification for. Give me something, anything that directly shows Kirk actually did this:
This is called “sea-lioning.”
Calling out people for making stuff up is not sea lioning
I agree with you in principle. It sucks a well-worded dissenting opinion is getting downvoted. I’m not an advocate for political killings. But I want to pose a counter question… When does it become acceptable to cross this line? When can an otherwise reasonable person give up on a broken system, and go from political resistance to violent resistance? Because for a lot of people, their rights, their lives, and their futures are under attack. Both politically AND with the full force of the government.
when they talk about removing rights from the “others” in society.
I don’t know your backgrounds or motivations, but that simple a response feels flippant.
I too believe that you should obviously resist and try to counter someone who wants to stamp down the “other” just because they are the other. But simple talk probably shouldn’t warrant execution, unless you want those same rules to apply against you as well. Fight them with words and actions, yes. Discredit the speaker and their ideas, embarrass them, ostracize them. Drive them and their bass-ackwards views out of polite society. I know this is difficult in the current environment. They appear to have no shame. But I think the bar for for violence has to be higher.
I wont shed any tears for this guy. I wont use his name. I want him to be forgotten. But I don’t think his killing should be celebrated either.
Dingdingdingdingding.
Here’s the winner, right here. Fascist fucks want to go around pretending that only billy clubs and bullets and bombs count as “violence.” Inflicting mass starvation on people, withholding medical care, stealing workers’ wages they depend upon to survive, and brutalizing minorities and marginalized groups (oftentimes with actual up front physical attacks) is “just doing business.”
So news flash to the chucklefucks: That’s not how it works. State sponsored violence is still violence, and so it follows the oppressed have a right to defend themselves. It sure sucks when the shoe is on the other foot, don’t it?
But it turns out there’s an easy way to defend yourself from that sort of thing. All you have to do is not be an evil and hateful fuck whose policies and actions threaten the lives of others and their right to exist.