Regarding defence:
The conclusion is inescapable: now is the time for the UK to reinforce, not wreck Europe’s security relationships, both through the European pillar of Nato and through cooperation with the EU. That means developing its own military capabilities as the US pulls back, as well as exploring a UK role in potential decision-making bodies such as a European security council.
Regarding the economy:
Labour should be open to renegotiating all barriers to cooperation – including integration with the single market in a Swiss-style deal.
Thoughts?
Please let us all remind the people we know who voted ‘leave’ about all the costs consequences vs what was promised. Remind them that these same people are re-selling their same bullshit to “fool them twice” with the same.
Nationally, we fucked up voting for Brexit. I have people that I haven’t spoken to since them, but if I think they will consider a return, I’d be round to theirs for a cuppa and catch up ASAP to drop it into conversation.
Yeah but then the like of farage like to claim that it’s just the wrong kind of Brexit, and his would be better in some way that he can never explain
Or the ole “10 billion pounds for the NHS” switcheroo
The EU is a capitalist cult, if the working class of Britain want a better Britain we should stay out of the EU. Yes, many voted leave because they’re anti-immigrant flagshaggers types but many were also misled, such as my mum, who believed the narrative that if we left the EU the NHS would get more funding.
Fuck off back to reddit with this libshit take.
who believed the narrative that if we left the EU the NHS would get more funding.
But it was a lie pushed by conservatives who have historically underfunded and undersupported the NHS.
The best thing the workers of the UK can do right now is join an entity with better working rights, which happens to be the EU
A broken clock is right twice a day. We did not leave the EU for the long-term betterment of the working class but it is something which we have gained. If we want better working rights, we need to organise within our own country for major changes not join a capitalist, imperialist entity for mild concessions.
Whilst I agree with the ideal pushed by Corbyn and others, the reality of the situation is that the working class in this country is more broken than ever before.
The working class is now more readily manipulated by increasingly popular right-wing media outlets heralded by the deregulation of our media imparted in no small part from our withdrawal from basic EU media legislation.
In short: if you’re waiting for a revolution to happen, then you’ll be sorely disappointed by how distracted we are to even begin forming a spark
I’m not waiting, I and many others are constantly going through the process of learning and applying Marxist-Leninist ideology to themselves and their local community. The Bolshevik’s were a small party until revolution came, the decline and fall of systems and ideologies is not linear, they unpredictably and wildly grow and shrink.
But look around, capitalism is in decay, it is clearer now than it was just a few years ago and in a few years it is very likely it will be even clearer and even more decayed. And this will directly affect people’s political views.
Real, signifcant change to our society only has come through organised revolution (it is how feudalism became capitalism) history has shown this. Please read Reform or Revolution by Rosa Luxembourg.
Yes, many voted leave because they’re anti-immigrant flagshaggers types but many were also misled
I’m not sure that categorising leave voters as having either been racists or been hoodwinked is doing your argument much favour tbh.
Oh yes because there only the 2 types of people I gave as examples who voted leave. No more nuance to it than that of course.
They were the only two examples you chose to give in favour of your argument that we should stay out.
Personally I think that those were poor examples, and it’s much more nuanced than that, but then I wasn’t the one making the argument or choosing the examples to back it up with.
‘Workers of the world, unite!’
Since you’re talking about ’ the working class of Britain’… Do you know who said that?
The EU as a bloc are vehemently anti-socialist and are a massive impediment to any potential socialist or communist governance by member states. They discipline member states to keep them in line ideologically and for their markets to remain “free”.
Socialists should and must be absolutely opposed to the EU as a project, but work towards close collaboration with other European socialists and socialist/communist parties.
Dismantle the EU once you established close and successfull cooperation with other socialists and formed a functional organisation to replace it.
Calling for an end of the EU without having the means to replace its protective role for all its citizens, also workers, against foreign imperalistic powers makes you a tool of said powers, nothing else. An adaption to Chinese or American work ethics and worker rights is NEITHER a goal of the european working class NOR a socialist ideal, even if the former imperialistic power paints itself as being socialist.
The EU are a foreign imperialist power for much of the global south.
I didn’t mention China or America.
The EU absolutely obliterated the Greek economy and subjected them to austerity politics to pay off debts to other EU member states. Its key members (Germany, France) are neocolonial powers in their own rights, with Germany deepthroatedly supporting Israel while France maintains a hegemonic, colonial role over its ‘former’ colonies in West Africa.
The EU core extracts cheap labour from its periphery member states (mostly former Eastern bloc nations) and has no intention of reducing the massive wage differentials between member states that cause this effect. It ensures that no member state can nationalise industries, and works towards ‘liberating’ industries that are already nationalised so that German and French capital can pour into those industries and capture their market share and profits.
A ‘strong and stable’ EU is not going to be particularly easy to supplant now is it? Surely you want your enemies as weak as possible before dealing the finishing blow instead of propping them up and aiding their legitimacy despite their clearly imperialist aims and ends. The EU are all about that white supremacist ‘our garden vs. their jungle’, keep the savages out, kill the refugees in the Mediterranean and let the Albanians do our dirty work. No friends of mine or any well-read socialist.
I understand the political calculation of Starmer’s Brexit position as a means to get power, but the global situation with the US gives Starmer the political cover he needs to just full on reverse brexit and have the UK rejoin the EU as a full member. Trump has given him a narrow window of opportunity to correct an obvious wrong. Starmer needs to seize that opportunity, NOW!
Sure the UK won’t get the same cushy deal they had as an EU member before, but it’ll still be better than anything he’s currently proposing publicly.
Politically it might cost him any Leavers who voted Labour (if any are left who haven’t defected to Reform by now), but he’ll earn some favour with Remainers who left Labour for the LibDem, SNP and Greens which might be enough to secure a minority Labour government. And, a Labour government moving to rejoin the EU could be enough to shoot the SNPs hopes of a majority in Scotland this spring and their promised independence referendum if they get one. Not that I support any of that, (I’ve never voted Labour and disagree with most of what comes out of Starmer’s mouth). This is just the political benefits I see for Labour if they choose a different path.
Anyway, TL;DR: DO IT! Rejoin the EU today!
The problem with a burned bridge is . . you can’t get back.
Also the people whose bridge it was are pretty angry about it now.
Economically UK was f**ked before, with just Biden in office. Now that the demented rapist is off the leash, the UK is super-f**ked. Brexit was an astonishing feat of self-sabotage, and one PM isn’t able to set it right.
Though we all wish they were.
The problem with a burned bridge is . . you can’t get back.
Also the people whose bridge it was are pretty angry about it now.
The problem with bridge analogies is that you can always rebuild a bridge 🤷.
Also, who’s bridge do you think it was? This metaphorical bridge surely represents the EU and cooperation between member states of which the UK was once part of. So by definition people in the UK are also angry… and angry to get their bridge back.
TL;DR: Use a better metaphor. No, wait. Rejoin the EU. Yes. That’s it.
I’m just saying, there were a lot of special considerations that will be gone now, plus all the insanity spent creating entirely new processes and rules will be trashed.
I hope it works somehow, but then Leave always seemed like a joke gone really wrong.
True, but trying times make strange bedfollows. Just as it is our opportunity to justify rejoining, the EU probably, pragmatically, recognises the need for as much military and economic strength as possible.
I wonder if the UK would have to do something extraordinary like give up the pound. Like to settle the question for some decades.
There’s no way they are getting to keep the pound. Zero chance.
We should keep the pound, but tie its value to the euro at something like 1.25 euros to the pound. Functionally identical, but it sounds like the pound is better, as long as you’re content to just look at the numbers and not give it any thought at all (which is probably the case for a lot of people who would complain about giving up the pound)
Just FYI a currency isn’t strong because 1 unit is worth more, like you can have 100 pounds worth 1.25 euros, you’d just have 100 times more pounds in circulation.
When an economy does better, it usually strengthen its currency and vice versa, but there are downsides to a “strong” currency, like your exports will be more expensive.
It’s not simple all that, and you are absolutely right when you hint at bad actors misinforming wilfully.
Oh I’m well aware of that, but I think that people who have a positive emotional response to keeping the pound will also have a positive emotional response to seeing two prices next to one another and the one in pounds being lower.
Absolutely worth it when the pound is so weak.
100%
It’s looking pretty grim at the moment isn’t it? I’d like to say it’s a no-brainer but there’s a lot of ifs and buts to be considered.
Working on the assumption that Trump will remain in power until the end of his term then there’s the very real possibility that he will invade Greenland and remove any support for Ukraine. Which will mean Europe will face a war, with no support, on two fronts. A war Europe cannot win. If we join forces with Europe we will be on the losing side and have to face any consequences thereof. It is also looking increasing likely that Farage and his goons will get into power at the next election and our politics will align with the US and Russia. If this all comes to pass then pragmatism says that it might be better to keep our distance from Europe and weather the new world order until either a) the political winds change or b) apocalyptic climate melt down gets us all fighting over guzzeline and Immortan Joe’s milkers.
However, what I fucking hope to all that is good and holy will happen is: Trump will be removed from office via due process in the next 6-12 months, America will return to a semblance of normality, renew it’s support against Russia and help a newly rearmed Europe force Putin out of Ukraine.
There’s also the possibility that Trump will refuse to leave office and America will implode into another civil war, or at least have to refocus resources domestically to attempt to quell a rebellion. In which case all bets are off. I expect Trump would forget Greenland, but might be pragmatic enough to keep supporting Ukraine? Who fucking knows?!
I don’t like Starmer, but I do not envy him. His domestic decisions have been fucking awful but I think, diplomatically, he’s doing as best anyone could given global politics atm. We should have never left the EU, that much is clear. But whether closer ties with Europe is the best thing for the country is difficult to say with tyrants on both sides and the chance of the next bloke undoing any rebuilding in a couple of years time.
My advice: Start stocking up, learn a practical skill, get involved with your community and be prepared for the worst.
The idea that Russia and the US are going to carve up Europe and leave the UK unmolested because of brexit is borderline delusional, as is the notion that Trump will be removed from office by anything other than too many cheeseburgers. There is no electoral math that would give the Democrats the ability to remove him, and there is no way they will get ~20 Republican Senators to defect.
And if old man time impeaches him, the party is aligned with russia still. It is not turning back, biden was our chance to save what remains of liberal democracy and we squandered it.
The party is behind this new aggressive military operations. If anything it is worse with new leaders as the current one is imcompetent and mentally challenged.
The party isn’t “aligned with Russia” and neither is Trump. That’s a bunch of conspiratorial nonsense.
Russia had/has an interest in the Republicans and especially Trump holding power, and they act on it, but only because of how bad they are for America in general.
Trump aligns with whomever last complimented him on how shiny and gold his asshole tastes, and it lasts until the next guy rolls out their tongue.
Biden wasn’t our last chance, Bernie was.
Maybe 5 years ago that would sell to the sheep better. Now? Ha. He’s blowing up nato in the only way he possibly could or trying to, and floating increasing military spending to make up for what europe buys to help sell it.
If you actually believe that is a “conspiracy,” that isn’t true, I’ve an exciting investment opportunity for ya, sucka.
Blaming Russia is a coping mechanism that American liberals use to rationalize why their country is doing bad things out in the open.
When their country was doing bad things secretly, the coping mechanism was that “it’s complicated” and that the American empire was slightly less evil than previous empires, and that the idea of just not being an empire was unrealistic.
One day, their coping mechanism will be that [insert atrocity] is “a leftover trump-era policy” that is unrealistic to stop doing immediately and we need to be patient, and that they want to give Greenland back but “it’s complicated”
While true russia is a coping mechanism, and excuse so the establishment doesn’t have to take responsibility for running doomed to fail candidates, it’s also true Russia is sponsoring the far right, many outright fascists, across the west. To take their counties by elections, and then fix themselves in power. That has been clear for some time, since Russia started loaning money to the national front in france really, well before 2016.
It is a conspiracy to say Russia is allied to the US administration and far right challengers poised to take europe like dominoes just not a false one.
He’s blowing up nato
He’s also helping Ukraine blow up Russia. Not as the reliable ally Biden was, but not in a “doing Putin’s bidding” way either. Now he’s capturing oil tankers from Russia’s oil fleet.
Trump has always hated NATO.
He has always been in bed with the russian mob, that is directed by the fsb too. It’s not much of a secret, denying it at this point just shows that you are susceptible to believing suits lying to your face.
/looks around
Who’s denying it? American criminal organizations have always had ties to criminal organizations everywhere, and the same is true of intelligence organizations. That’s not even interesting, and it’s not “alignment”.
However, what I fucking hope to all that is good and holy will happen is: Trump will be removed from office via due process in the next 6-12 months…
So say we all, but the midterm elections in November would have to be unbelievably successful for the Democrats to take power from trump, and even then I don’t know if enough Senate seats are up for that chamber to even do the needful should the Dems win them all.
I’d say the smarter money is on his various physical ailments limiting his potential damage, ideally completely. But even then we’d have an oligarch’s lapdog running things.
…America will return to a semblance of normality, renew it’s support against Russia and help a newly rearmed Europe force Putin out of Ukraine.
I at least feel confident that one of those things will eventually happen. Hopefully both and then some.
Meanwhile your starmer is cancelling the magna carta without a fight.
